Evan Hackel speaks with Jeffery Hayzlett from the C-Suite Network about Jeff’s book “Think Big, Act Bigger,” and ways to design and develop training programs that create a culture of success. Contact Jeff at [email protected].
Announcer: Welcome to “Training Unleashed,” the show that will help you design and deliver training that’s off the chain and will make a difference. Now here is your host, Evan Hackel.
Evan: Today we have an absolutely fabulous guest. His name is Jeffrey Hayzlett. He is the chairman of the C-Suite. I have gotten to know him really well. And this is a dynamic person, a person I think has ideas and concepts that are really breakthrough. One of the things that I love about him is his new book, Think Big and Act Bigger. So let me just start with the simple question, what does it mean to think and act bigger?
Jeffrey: Thanks so much, Evan. I really appreciate you letting me be a part of this. You know, I’ve been in the C-Suite for a long, long time. And I’ve owned and sold businesses and a whole host of different kinds of things. And like a lot of the folks, you know, that listen to this podcast, you know, sometimes you get caught in the situation where someone says, “Hey, it’s not in the budget. It’s not this, not that.” In fact, in my book I put like pages and pages of excuses that people give to me. And this is about removing all those self-imposed obstacles that we kind of put in place or, you know, those things that just kind of pop up all the time because that’s the way we do things around here. And I just finally got tired of it and saying, “Look, if there’s no one that can get in the way of you doing what you want to do,” and this is about to think big and act big, “add more zeros. Do it bigger than you’ve ever done it before, just because you can.”
And that’s really what the whole book’s about. It’s really a mindset of saying, “Look. We can get whatever we want done accomplished. It’s just a matter of us setting priorities.” And that’s really truly all it is. I mean, who says you can’t do these things? Is there some unwritten rule? Is there some written rule? Well, then change the rules, you know. And that’s what this book’s all about. And, you know, I was a chief marketing officer at Eastman Kodak and, you know, that was a place with lots of rules. In fact, they used to have manuals of rules. And it just used to drive me crazy. The people would say, “Well, we can’t do that because it’s not in the budget. We can’t do that. We can’t activate social media content because it’s Thursday and it’s better to activate it on Tuesday.” Get over that, you know. This is about making sure that you put those things in front of you to really make progress.
Evan: It’s interesting that you bring up the Eastman Kodak thing because that’s exactly my next line of question. I know you were the chief marketing officer at Eastman Kodak. Clearly, that’s not a training role.
Evan: What did the people in the training department have to do to make you and other people at C-Suite say, “We should be investing in training because we’re going to get a good return and we need training as part of the puzzle?”
Jeffrey: You have to be an idiot not to invest in training, let me just put it that way because, I mean, that’s what it’s all about. It should be about continuous improvement. And if you’re not training and retraining and getting better at what you do, then how do you get better? I mean, especially companies that are in Six Sigma and everything else that you put forward. So they didn’t have to teach me very much about, “Look, we’re going to invest in training.” I mean, you’ve got new products that are rolling out. We had 19 different little business divisions. I shouldn’t say little because it was $17 billion, but, you know, with new products, and let’s imagine you had 10 products in each of those divisions, you had to update them twice a year, well, that’s roughly 200 different products that you’re going to have to train. You know, almost every single day training has to occur to your sales force or your customer service team. So training has got to be an intricate part.
Now I will tell you that one of the things I did when, and the training teams were most valuable to me, was a program that we put in called FAST, focus, accountability, simplicity, and trust. That’s what it stood for. We said, “Look, even if we screw up, let’s just do it faster.” It was to change the mindset in the company because, you know, we had this thing where it took months and months and months to do anything. And so we said, “Look,” I got together with the CFO, I got together with the head of HR, I got together with some of my other officers and said, “Look, we need to develop a new code, a mood around here, that’s fast.” And that’s how we came up with focus, accountability, simplicity, and trust. And it was really in each of those domains. And our training team really took that out and adopted that. And it became our fast movement to trying to do things. And, again, even if we screwed up, we wanted to do it faster.
Evan: I like that. I really do. And I think a lot of times part of what gets lost, particularly in efforts around training, is the why we’re doing it. And you so clearly identified the why. And I think that’s really critical. Let’s take the why to the person, right? You talk a lot about you as a person having your own identity within the organization. Tell us about that.
Jeffrey: Well, I think, you know, you’ve got to own your stuff. I mean, so in terms of having your own identity, your own brand, your own sense of who you are, brand is nothing but a promised delivered. Now you can have a brand for a company, what’s the promise of the company, but you’ve got to have a brand amongst yourself in terms of the company. What are you going to deliver for the company? What are you going to own? How are you going to be that entity in itself? You know, when typically they see most of the C-Suite, they see, you know, Jeff Hayzlett, they see Kodak or they see the company. And today I’m the chairman of the C-Suite Network so everyone now sees see me as the C-Suite Network or C-Suite TV because I’m doing a lot of television. So, you know, those are the things you want people to associate it. So when they see you as a trainer, for instance, those people that are watching today, you know, what do they see? Do they see improved education? Do they see career advancement? You know, what is it that is your promise to deliver and how are you delivering it?
Evan: Do you think that people need to… How do people do that? That would be the better question. How do you determine…
Jeffrey: Deliver. Deliver it. First of all, deliver it. I mean, so, you know, look, what’s a brand? Again, I get into this promise delivered. So if you’re accountable, if you’re reliable, if you over-deliver, if you’re nice, all those things are a part of your promise of how you deliver and, you know, be yourself. You know, when people see me, I think they see brash, they see bold, they see loud, but then at the same time, I’ve bought and sold over 250 businesses, $25 billion in transactions, and so I think they see that success over and over and over and over again. And that’s what I want them to see. And so it has to become who you are. You know, brand originally is something you put always on a cow and occasionally a horse. It’s the representation of ownership on the side of a bovine, basically, but really it’s been transferred to this entity of who you are or your promise delivered. And it’s not colors, it’s not schemes, you know, it’s not all the things that we have, you know, in the background I have here with my books and signs and so forth so that, you know, the way in which we put forward, you know, what we look like, it’s really about the things that we deliver. And so in your training role, what is it you deliver? You know, you don’t teach people. You deliver results. You teach people in order to bring them forward to deliver the things they’re supposed to deliver. You’re delivering success. So you should, you know, speak of it in those terms.
Evan: No, I totally agree. And I think every person’s a brand, whether they think they are or aren’t. And either you can control what your brand is or you can let everyone out-brand you.
Jeffrey: Yeah because, I mean, the customer owns it in the essence. And, you know, in the end, that’s who owns it. The perception of you, of that brand, that’s who owns it. I mean, you might deliver it. Now you can change that, you know. If you’re always going to be late, you’re unreliable and you’re incompetent, well, you can change those things. And so you can start to be more reliable and more competent. And, you know, I can see you in the workplace as that kind of person that I want to work with.
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Evan: I’ve got a question on my list. I got the question from you. The answer seems obvious to me, but you’ve asked me to ask it. And I’m going to ask it of you. Is passion good or bad for business? And can you succeed without it?
Jeffrey: Passion’s good, but you can’t succeed just with it. I mean, the people at Kodak were passionate and yet, you know, last year…I left the company six years ago, and a year ago, they went bankrupt. Well, you can’t have passion alone. Passion alone is not going to deliver. I mean, look I’m passionate about…I’m from South Dakota. I love pheasants. Pheasants, to me…it’s the state bird of South Dakota, by the way, but I love to watch them run around and see them and their little tail feathers. And I like to get a gun, hunt them down, and kill them. I mean, I’m a passionate person about hunting pheasants, but I was also passionate about raising pheasants. I tried to corner the market on pheasants until I realized there wasn’t one, you know. I had 3,000 acres I invested in with all these other investors and we grew pheasants, we raised pheasants, and we tried to corner the market on it, which was a stupid mistake on our part, but that’s a different book. And then one night, you know, we had 10,000 pheasants look up in the sky during a torrential thunderstorm and they drowned. I mean, these were some stupid birds. So it takes more than just passion. It takes, you know, the ability to recognize there’s a market, ability to know what you’re doing, be competent in the things that you can do. So, you know, that’s the key thing. Passion will carry you through a lot of different things, but it won’t make up for if you suck, or if your product’s not delivering, or if you’re not doing the things you said that you’re going to be doing.
Evan: There is no doubt about that. You know, it’s ultimately what executes. I think you’re making a great point. People have called you pig-headed, irrational before, but you say it doesn’t bother you.
Jeffrey: Hell, no.
Evan: Why doesn’t it bother you? In fact, you think it’s a good thing for leaders to be a little pig-headed.
Jeffrey: Well, I think you’ve got to put a stake in the ground, you know. You know, look, in one of my shows, I did a show on Life Technologies, it was out in San Diego, the Carlsbad, San Diego area. Life Technologies is a $4 billion technology company, a biotech company. It recently sold to Thermo Fisher a couple of years ago for about $13 billion. I went in and did a show with them to talk about, you know, how they were changing life in mapping the human genome, and then what did it mean for the implications of what we do as a human being.
So in there, I was interviewing the CEO. And he was speaking at a Harvard Business MBA alumni event. And actually, he put up on the wall a slide which I thought was crazy at the time. And he said, “Leaders must be irrational.” And I thought, “What? Are you fricking nuts? What do you mean irrational?” If anything, he’s a publicly-traded company, you know, and a biotech company which, if anything, they should be rational, you know, and scientific and exact. And as a public company, you can’t be irrational. You can’t do that. They’ll kill you, you know, in the marketplace. And then when he said that sometimes we’re here at point A and we need to go to point B, but what we need to do is tell them we’re going way over here to C, and it might seem irrational to everybody in the company in order to drag them and drag, you know, the whole group to be, and I thought, “Ah, brilliant.” And that’s what it means to be pig-headed sometimes. It means that a leader must stand for a certain level of quality, a certain level of output, a certain level of margins, a certain level of SG&A, just like the folks that are listening here. For training, you’ve got to stand for a certain type of course development, or course deliverance or the quality of the course, and what must be included in order for it to be effective. That’s what leaders have to do. And it has to happen every single day. And I thought that was a great, great point. So yeah, it’s okay. You can come and be pig-headed all you want.
Evan: I love what you’re saying. And so many times what I see in this world is so many people that are shackled with cant’s. Can’t this. Can’t that. Can’t this. And to the title of your book, “Think Big, Act Bigger” is sometimes you need to be bold. And if you feel like, “God, all people can do is accept less. So cut the budget. Cut the budget.” Well, what’s that bigger idea that’s worth investing in that people will see when you’re spending all your time going the other direction? So I agree.
Jeffrey: Yeah, but, and, you know, it happens all the time, Evan. You know, it’s like saying…let’s imagine the folks that are watching this, you say, “Well, we can only get so many people there.” No, we can offer this to everybody. It’s like my team came to me one time and said, “Well, we can only…” Like social media following is a big thing for me. I’ve got like 260,000 Twitter followers. And back early on when I first got started, I was telling the team, “Look, we have to move from 25,000. I need you to get me to 50,000 followers,” or maybe it was 100,000. Yeah, I think it was 100,000. And so they came back to me with a plan to get me 50,000 followers, you know. Now this is organic followers. This is real stuff. How did we do it? What do we have to do? Because you have to spend a little money, you have to, you know, get in front of people, buy some ads and so forth, and you have to, you know, do some campaigns. And so that’s going to cost us money.
And they came back to me and said, “Well, we can only get you to 50,000. We can’t get you to 100,000 in the time frame and the budget.” And I said, “What do you mean the budget?” And they go, “Well, you know, what we’re going to spend.” I go, “Who gave you a budget? I told you to give me to 100,000, not to 50,000.” I said, “It’s up to me to determine whether it’s a good cost or not for the effort of our time and good use of resources.” I said, “Get me to 100,000,” because I knew the value of 100,000. Now I know the value of 250,000. Now I want half a million or a million. You know, those are the things. Why did I limit myself? Why did I say, “Just get me to 100,000?” I shouldn’t have ever said that. I should have said, “Get me to a million.” And I wish I would have said those things. So we put these self-imposed limitations all the time, these cant’s that you mentioned. All the time we say, “Well, we can’t do that.” Bullshit. Yes, you can. You can do whatever you want to do. It’s just a matter of can you make the choices that you need to make? You know, life is like a big teeter-totter or a seesaw. I mean, when we were kids, you know, if you sat on one side, you know, it’s got to give on this side. And if you push on this side, it’s got to give on that side. That’s what it’s like every day in the C-suite. That’s what it’s like every day in every role is making a determination what’s more important than the other thing I’ve got to do. And you’ve just got to make that choice.
Evan: Which leads great into the next question is it’s imperative to have focus and cut out the noise. What are tips to help people do that?
Jeffrey: Kill squirrels, okay? Squirrels. Okay. You know, there’s a movie called “Up.” I love this movie. It’s one of the most beautiful movies. It’s touching, heartfelt. It’s got a great story in it. It’s an animated movie with an Ed Asner character, an old man character, and a young scout. And they go Paradise Falls in this adventure. And they run into Dug, this dog, who’s got a collar that his master has given to him that allows you to hear what the dog thinks. And like most dogs, the dog comes up, and he’s a really friendly dog, he goes, “I like you. I think you’re very nice. You seem like nice people.” And all of a sudden, you know, he says, he explains the collar has been given to him by his evil master, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So you can hear him. And then all of a sudden he’s in the middle of a thought of saying something. He goes, “Squirrel, squirrel,” like a dog would, right? I mean, that’s what dogs do.
And the message is we’ve got to kill those squirrels. They pop up every day in our business. And it’s up to you to determine to kill the squirrels, to put them aside, because that’s what happens in business all the time. If it’s not focused in on the things you’re focused on, then why are you focused on focusing on those unfocused kinds of things that pop up? And that’s really what that’s about. And it is no more than that. Now I actually do some other things like I create a triangle of time. You know, most people put the most important things up at the top. I do that, the most important thing at the top, the next and the next, right, the good, the better, the best. And then I flip the calendar or flip the triangle. And then that’s my time frame. And I spend more time with the little things, and then less and less. So those are, to me, some really simple tips. And I actually take the calendar, write it, and then I flip it and then put it back in the, you know, big base at the very top. And that’s where I spend most of my time because those are the things that are going to mean the most to my business or the most to my, you know, being effective as a leader or as a trainer in the company.
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Evan: I want to talk a little bit about management. A lot of people in this webinar manage people. And you have a thing called “The Katelyn Rule.” And I think it would be great for you to explain that.
Jeffrey: Yep. I love this rule, but it’s a little hard. So follow with me. There’s a theme to this, and it’s not as harsh as it is. It’s about conditions of satisfaction, mutual conditions of satisfaction. One day I’m sitting in the office. Katelyn steps next to me. You can see it’s a very open office environment. If I turned around, you could see everybody in here’s all in headsets, all open. No doors or anything. And she walked up to me. We have a company called TallGrass PR. And it’s a social media company. And it stands for if you want to run with the big dogs, you have to learn to pee in the tall grass. So we work with high-growth companies, and we help them go public, we help them bring visibility.
And so one day, Katelyn stops by. We’re about to go and meet up at Grand Central Station at the Graybar Building with this client that we’re about to take public. And we’re going to leave in about five minutes. And she walked up to me and said, “Mr. Hayzlett, should we take color copies with us in the presentation?” And I turned to her and I said, “Katelyn, you’re new here. You’re brand new. You’ve only been with us for a couple of weeks. This is the first meeting you and I are going to, but here’s the new rule. And the brand new rule I’m putting is called “The Katelyn Rule.” I’m naming it after you. You only get to ask me 21 questions. You can ask me any 21 questions you want in a month, but you only get to ask me 21. You can ask me about the meaning of life. You can ask me where the best train is to take across town. You can ask me where the best Italian restaurant is. Is that one of your 21 questions that you want to waste in order to ask me a question?” And she goes, “I don’t think so.” I go, “Good career move because if I have to answer that, what do I need you for?”
See, and it wasn’t meant to be really harsh. It was sent to set mutual conditions of satisfaction. And I turned to her and I said, “Katelyn, I saw you. I’m actually the person that hired you. And I saw that you were one of these superstars and that you are a big dog because we only have big dogs that work in TallGrass.” And I said, “Your job is to make sure that I hit the mark, whether it’s in front of a camera like today, or it’s on a stage, or it’s in front of a TV camera, or it’s front of a mark in front of a client in order to make a presentation, and you’re to do everything there is to get me ready for that. That’s your role. That’s what you signed up for. Yet, you’re asking me a question which I think you already know the answer for.” I said, “By the way, do you have time to make the color copies?” And she said, “No.” I said, “Never ask me a question like that again, you know.”
And sometimes, that’s what happens with us all the time. We already know the answers to them, but yet we go and ask the questions that we shouldn’t ask. And we have people we don’t hold accountable. I’m one of those people that holds people accountable because if you say we’re going to start the meeting at 10:00, we start the meeting at 10:00. If we say, “We’re going to be at this level of quality,” we’re going to be at this level quality. If you say you’re going to have 100 people at the training event that you’re about to hold, those people that are watching, you better have 110. Over-deliver on each of those promises. Mutual conditions of satisfaction, that’s what “The Katelyn Rule” is all about.
Evan: I love the rule. I mean, people spend a lot of time managing when all they’re really doing in my opinion is crippling the people they’re managing. They’re not allowing them to do their jobs.
Jeffrey: And we always are at fault to that, Evan, as you well know. As leaders, you know, sometimes we get verbose. Sometimes we get a little bit hearing about ourselves. We talk about it. And I’ve got to do more and more of that. I focus more and more of my time. And, you know, when I wrote the book, “Think Big, Act Bigger,” I actually made “The Katelyn Rule” as the very first story in the book. I love telling stories, and that was the very first story in the book that I’ve opened with.
Evan: By the way, TallGrass, I’m a client, and I can’t say enough good things about them.
Jeffrey: Thank you.
Evan: And I will say this, they do what you say because like within the first month, they got me into “Inc. Magazine” as one of the [inaudible 00:21:30] people. And it was great. And they were thinking big. And if they had asked me, “Do you think you could get this?” I would have said, “No.”
Jeffrey: Yeah. That’s good. That’s good. I’m glad to hear that. Even though I’m not involved as you well know, in the day-to-day stuff of most of the clients that they do, I’m the chairman of the company and invested and started it. And then once the team goes, they go. And I stay out of their way. And they pull me in when they need to.
Evan: And that’s what, in my opinion, great leadership is about. Let’s talk about cadence. And I know cadence is important to you. Why is it important for a company to have cadence?
Jeffrey: You know, it’s the energy of the company. When you watch a television show and you put on “The West Wing,” you see people running around in the background all the time. It’s fast-paced. When you see “CSI,” it’s fast-paced. Then when you watch the “Downton Abbey,” it slows down, right? That’s what I’m talking about, cadence. Walk into your office and just look around. Watch the emails flows. Watch the way in which the meetings are held. What’s the cadence because that becomes a part of the culture of the company. And I think it’s important for if you want to grow faster, if you want to be faster, you have to have a faster cadence, and you have to have a different kind of mentality. It’s like when the office here, if someone says, “Oh, it’s cold,” I go, “Hey, work harder. It will warm up, you know.” And it was just my fun way of saying, “Let’s just keep moving. Keep moving. Keep moving.” And so I ask you to think about what is the cadence that, you know, you operate with? And does that match where your goals are for the company and where you want to take the company because if it doesn’t, guess what? You won’t. And so that’s a thing. And, you know, in the military, they have a cadence, you know, they march to. And so companies have the same kind of cadence. You can see it in the email flow. You can see it in the meetings. You can see it in everything that you do. And my question is to you as leaders, as trainers, you know, as people who are helping to set that cadence, what’s the cadence that you want to lead with?
Evan: Well, it’s interesting because as you sit back and I think about this, it really comes right back in my opinion to “The Katelyn Rule,” right, because if there’s always that check-back where you have to make sure everything’s okay, so you check, they check, everyone checks up the line, your cadence has got to be incredibly slow.
Jeffrey: Oh, and you see that in companies as they start to put more rigor into it. And I think you need to take less rigor out of it and open up and I think speed. Look, what happens if you make a mistake by and large in a company? Is anyone going to die? That’s the question I’d ask you. I almost named the book, “No one’s going to die,” because I really think that we need to operate a little bit more like that. It’s okay to make mistakes. We make mistakes all the time. What’s wrong with that? Did anyone die? No one died. Okay. Could it have been better? It could always be better, okay? You know, if you get it…
You know, it’s like I used to say, I used to have a description for a product that we made at Kodak that someone came up with. It was Offset Class. Now it was a printing product. So it wasn’t offset, but it was Offset Class, which means it was in the category of offset printing. And again, I think that’s a great way of being able to say it. It’s like years and years ago, it was 15 years ago, I was selling what was then a printer, an output for a commercial printer. And I said, “Let’s call it Business Class.” And they said, “Well, why are you calling it Business Class?” I said, “Well, because the color was different.” It wasn’t what we’d call offset class quality, which this is offset class, it was just a little bit below that. And someone said, “Well, why are you going to call it Business Class Color?” I said, “Because you can’t call it Shitty Color.” So, you know, you have to come up with just a different way of being able to say what those things are. And I think it’s a good way of doing it. So, you know, it’s like we can sell it. It’s not that, but we can sell this, and this is how we do it.
Evan: Well, look. I have a saying, which is I hope my biggest failure is yet to come. And the minute it is not, it means I have given up trying. And back to your thing about think big, act bigger, when you lose the mentality that you are thinking big, you are accepting mediocrity. And I can’t think of anything worse, plus I’ve read your book and been inspired by it so you’re just [crosstalk 00:25:56]
Jeffrey: Well, I appreciate that. And, you know, Evan, hey, it’s amazing sometimes making mistakes like that. People, they’re just freaked out about having to do that sometimes, you know. If somebody says…they always ask me in an interview, “What’s your biggest mistake?” I say, “I don’t know. I haven’t done it yet, you know.” And that’s the way I respond back because I literally…I mean, I forget them all the time. I do a lot of them. I’ve got a ton of them. Some of them I remember a little bit easier, but most of the time I have to really think about them because I’m so focused on winning fast, not failing fast. And I think there’s a difference too. Someone once asked Thomas Edison, they said, you know, “You’ve failed 10,000 to make the light bulb.” He said, “No, I made it 10,000 ways to make it better,” you know. So, again, I think that’s the way we want to go at it. Don’t fail fast. Win fast. You’re going to fail. Trust me. If you’re of…any great character, any great performer, anyone that’s looking to get better, training, you know, especially all you trainers, you find a different way. Yesterday I was with a group of professional speakers who’ve just graduated from a speakers academy. And were they great? Well, to them they were great, to others, not so great. They have room for improvement. And, you know, I was talking to a number of them, and I said, “Look. I’m in the Speaking Hall of Fame, you know, with Zig Ziglar and Norman Vincent Peale and Art Linkletter and Ronald Reagan, which is a very austere body, but yet, I’ve got a long ways to go in order to be able to be even better than what I am today.” And I’m pretty damn good, you know. So, you know, I sounded like Trump there for a second, but…
Evan: No, you don’t because [inaudible 00:27:35] you have humility.
Jeffrey: Well, you know, but that’s the key. I think you have to always look to improve. It’s got to be continuous improvement all the time. And it’s never going to be perfect.
Evan: Can you quickly talk about the servant mentality and how to become a better leader?
Jeffrey: Yeah. I’m a real believer in this servant mentality. And it was interesting, I was back home in South Dakota talking to a great leader who, you know, owns Burger Kings and a whole host of different businesses, golf courses and bowling alleys and everything. This guy’s a great guy. His name is Tom Walsh. And he was also talking about servant mentality. And I’m just a huge believer in it. I cleaned bathrooms. I cleaned the bathroom. I go in that bathroom right over there and I clean it. I come back on the weekends, if I’m here on the weekends, and I clean up the place. I make sure it’s tidy. And the reason I do that is because I want people to see that I do that, not because I want them to, you know, respect me more, but if I’m doing that, then that shows that I care. And so my job is to do the best thing I can do to make you better than what you do. And if you see me doing the little, tiny things, then you’re going to take more pride in those kind of things. And that’s just what I believe. I’m here to serve others. I created this C-Suite Network. The C-Suite Network is to serve C-Suite executives, you know, just like when you used to go in the restaurant and they know what you like to drink and they bring your drink right away, that’s I think the way that we should serve other people. I do that in my church and I do that in other ways and throughout my life. I serve my family. I serve my wife. I serve, you know, different people in our operation. And I think the more that we do of that, the more it comes back to us by far.
Evan: This has been absolutely terrific. Thank you very much. As always, you inspire me, and I’m sure you’ve inspired our audience.
Jeffrey: Thank you.
Evan: Thank you very much. I appreciate you being on the call.
Jeffrey: Thanks, everybody.
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